Jo: 00:01

You're listening to Real Folk with me, Jo Burke. Hello, and welcome to Real Folk, Mel Larson. Mel is a international coach and consultant, and I know there are lots of people that go, what does that mean even? So we can discuss that. But the reason, dear listener, I thought it would be opportune is it's the start of a new year.

Jo: 00:26

It's 2025. And, I don't know what your goals are or your plans for personal, career, whatever, but I've got a hunch Mel might be the person to talk to for the next few minutes, half an hour, an hour. We'll see how long we can natter for. So welcome aboard, Mel Larsen.

Mel: 00:44

Oh, thank you, Jo. What a lovely introduction. And, Jo, you are literally my first call of the year, like, my first proper grown up call. So I was like

Jo: 00:56

I wouldn't go that far.

Mel: 00:59

I was like, off the sofa, switch the TV off, get into proper conversations now.

Jo: 01:05

Nice. Nice. Well, I'm glad I've made you be a grown up. Although, I do I take umbrage at that actually because I've spent my life trying to avoid being a grown up. So, I think that's where the best creativity lies personally.

Jo: 01:17

So, yeah, we don't need to be grown up to have meetings, do we? No.

Mel: 01:21

No. I 100% agree, actually. And I really love play. I think play is re super important in business, actually, as well as life because we just get all our brilliant ideas when we relax and stop being so, you know, desperately focused on everything. So, yeah, I love that.

Jo: 01:39

Agreed. So, so you're a an international coach and a consultant, and I know, you know, the the sort of, especially during COVID and things, I think, you know, people became coaches or turned to coaches. And, I still think there's a a lot of skepticism about the term coach, what it means, and, there was a plethora of suddenly life coaches and people that that really didn't have that much experience that had done one sort of diploma online over COVID and were suddenly experts. In fact, one of the funniest ones I saw was a hairdressing course online.

Jo: 02:14

It still tickles me to this day. It's like so bizarre. Mel is not that because I've known Mel. We were just saying just before we came on air that I think I haven't seen Mel for about 20 years.

Mel: 02:24

Is it really that probably and that's how we met, wasn't it, through playing in this supergroup thingy where we would come up with ideas and slogans and things. It was so much fun.

Jo: 02:38

So I mean, we were both, sort of freelance creatives, really, back then, and, I mean, we I still continue to do that, and really yours, what you do now, is an extension of that. So we we have sort of grown up in that respect and, sort of diversified our businesses and what we do, but, actually, to include even more creativity in play. So well done us.

Mel: 03:00

Yeah. Well done us. And I always remember, Jo, you were brilliant at being creative and innovative. So and I'm always keeping a track of what you do, and I think you've got something coming out or have had something coming out called utter Burke , and I just laughed. I howled with laughter. And you're so good with words, and I thought, oh, that's typical Jo making us all laugh, you know.

Jo: 03:21

Aw. Thanks. Thanks.

Jo: 03:22

This was the first podcast that I started, and it's called Real Folk and it's interviews with interesting people that people might not necessarily be aware of, be under the radar. And then after Burke was actually talking about challenges and and things to do in the new year.

Jo: 03:35

That was my challenge last year. I just thought, right, I'm gonna do, a podcast that's just me and is, like, just a really conversational stream of conscious, catch up once a week. So that's what Utterberg is, basically. So it's sort of a diary of an utter Burke, more is what it should be called.

Mel: 03:53

It's such a genius title. And I love that you you just talked about the challenge you set yourself because that's something I do a lot. And looping back to what you were saying about what people think about coaches, and I do get that cynicism, by the way, of course, you know, because when you work with a coach, you're like sharing your deepest, innermost thoughts. It's a bit like going to a therapist except it isn't therapy at all, because it's much more future focused. One of the things I think you have to do as a coach is really walk your talk and not just be BS ing everyone.

Mel: 04:23

Like, hey. You can have anything you want. You kind of have to live it as well. And the minute you said challenge, I remembered. I think it must have been about 5 5 years ago now.

Mel: 04:32

I set myself the challenge of doing a Facebook live every single day for a whole year.

Jo: 04:37

I remember that. And I used to watch some of them. Obviously, not all of them. That's a big that's a big ask.

Mel: 04:43

Wine

Jo: 04:44

pot. Yeah. But I do remember you doing that. Yeah.

Mel: 04:49

Yeah. You know? And I think coaching, when people are like, what is coaching? I think a lot of it is about really exploring the best of you. Like, what am I capable of?

Mel: 04:59

What do I really want? And what would it take for me to get that? And in my field, I'm really helping people amplify their clients, their income, and their impact. So it's like, you know, mostly people come to me because they want to sell more, you know, to put it bluntly. And

Jo: 05:16

a lot

Mel: 05:16

of people are really good at what they do, but they don't understand marketing. Like, you know, they could be, for example, a brilliant hairdresser or a brilliant copywriter or photographer or coach even, and they have no idea how to get their wares out there. And if you can't do that, it's really sad because then you're not gonna earn an income. So, you know, that's the challenge that I help walk people through. And along the way, they very often have to discover things about themselves and overcome things and challenge themselves.

Mel: 05:48

You know? So for a lot of people, one of the reasons I did a Facebook live every day for a year was to get used to putting myself out there and being visible. There's a lot of people they're like, but I'm a copywriter. I don't wanna be the face of my business. I don't wanna be out there in front of the cam you know, I'm a photographer.

Mel: 06:03

I'm behind the camera, not in front of it. So that's a major thing that a lot of, business owners have to confront is they need to get visible and be seen in the marketplace. Because if they don't, people can't choose whether to buy from them or not.

Jo: 06:16

No. It's a good point and it is the it is it isn't really a choice, is it? But you can see why a lot of people that don't naturally like being, like you said, in front of the camera that it's a bit of a, a bitter pill to suddenly realize you've started a business and then now you've actually got to be the face of that business.

Mel: 06:32

Yeah. You know? And it so you're, like, brilliant at being visible. You know? I know you've been on the stage and all sorts, you know, and you're on a total natural.

Mel: 06:40

It doesn't come naturally to everyone. I had to learn it, and I've been doing it for years years. So I'm used to it. I had a bit of a head start, you know, during COVID. A lot of people had to flip to go pivot into going online and learning to do that and it was really hard for them.

Mel: 06:54

You know, I had done that before for many years like speaking on stages and went through that journey of getting used to it. And the Facebook live every day was to get used to doing it much more frequently online, you know. So I've I've got used to it and I still still get those little palpitations but it it's getting better.

Jo: 07:13

Yeah. But I think that's natural as well. I think when you lose those palpitations, you lose your spark and a bit of your edge really because I think as soon as it becomes sort of blase and you're not you know, I think the thing that I always think people mix up is that fear and excitement are are the same sorts of emotions. They give you the same, buzz, but one one you take as a buzz and the other one you take as, like, a massive foreboding that you're gonna die and everyone's gonna hate you or whatever. But actually it's the same, physicality that that fear and excitement have, so I've always found that really interesting and I think it's an important one to for for people to remember when they're if they're not used to public speaking or if they've got to do something out of their comfort zone.

Mel: 07:57

Yeah. You know, I'm just as you're speaking, I'm remembering one of the most challenging public speaking, experiences I had was leading like, training a group of, senior arts professionals. So I'm in the room. That's challenging on its own, like, you know, training a group of professionals. There's about 30 people in the room.

Mel: 08:16

But I was also due to go and work in, Holland and Greece for the British Council to do some training over there. So they came to this training and filmed me while I was training people. So it was like this double whammy of, like, I'm gonna look good for the camera. I'm just on training these people. And when I saw the film, I it was great, actually.

Mel: 08:37

But one thing I noticed was I started plucking my eyebrows after that film because my eyebrows were so bushy and huge. I was like, oh my goodness. Why has nobody told me I have these giant eyebrows?

Jo: 08:49

But that's the trend now, Mel. You were just ahead of the curve. Everyone's got all the poor youngsters that you see, and it and, again, I can't understand why people do it to themselves. But they have those massive, like, slugs, basically, on their faces.

Mel: 09:02

I know.

Jo: 09:03

They were just ahead of the game.

Mel: 09:05

I was. Thank you for that refrain, Jo. I actually we You're welcome. Reframes my traumatic experience. Oh, and the other one was talking in public speaking.

Mel: 09:15

The other one was, I was in Austria last year. So I went to speak at this fantastic they call it a festival. It's really a conference but it's delivered in a kind of cool festival y way. So they had DJs there and they had like about 8 different stages. And I was speaking on the stage.

Mel: 09:30

I flew out to Austria, which I've never been to. I was speaking on stage but it was it's a bit like TED. It's a bit like TED Talk. And there were a lot of people who'd done TED Talks there. So you kind of, you know, you really have to bring your a game.

Mel: 09:43

Like, literally, I met, like, the creative producer of Pinterest. So it was, like, that level.

Jo: 09:49

Wow.

Mel: 09:49

You know, the year before they'd, like, had the head of marketing of Netflix. It was, like, really high level. So I was nervous. And I was in the queue in the morning as you'd speak to get to get into the venue. You know, you had your pass and everything.

Mel: 10:00

And I was standing chatting away to this woman, and it was great. And I was like, oh, I can relax now. Everyone here was great. And then she said, oh, you know, I was asking you about her TED talk. And she was like, yeah.

Mel: 10:10

You know, I kind of completely dried up and froze and forgot my words. And I was like, why would you tell me that? On the day that bang. Speak. And I suddenly started getting really nervous.

Mel: 10:21

You know, that was my second most scary experience. That was a really hard one, actually, because of the level. And all the speakers I spoke to said they were nervous. They were all, like, seasoned speakers. It was something about the level of people that that were there that kind of suddenly raised the bar.

Jo: 10:36

Speak to everyone.

Mel: 10:37

Oh my goodness. And I I thought my heart was gonna leap out of my chest just before I went on stage.

Jo: 10:42

But in a way, that's nice to that is a nice story to relate because I think the other thing that people mistakenly think is that that you do get you don't get nonplus ever, you know, just because you've been doing something for x amount of time or or are skilled in it. And I think the the thing is we all do at some level, if not every level, have imposter syndrome. It creeps up and nips you on the arse just about before you're about to do something.

Mel: 11:10

Yeah.

Jo: 11:11

Or like you say, you're in a room and you're like, I don't belong in this room. Why why why I've been allowed here? They're gonna find out. They're gonna chuck me out. Oh, that's such a good way

Mel: 11:20

of putting it. I don't belong in this room, you know, because I that is a big thing that I coach people on. I'm not a public speaking coach, although I have coached people successfully to speak in public because it comes up as part of marketing. But that imposter syndrome, oh my goodness, it comes up over and over again. I coach a lot of chief execs as well as small scale entrepreneurs.

Mel: 11:40

And if you saw these people in public, you would never for a minute dream that they ever had imposter syndrome. So just as you've said, it happens to everyone even, like, the top people who are super experienced because it's just I think it's just inbuilt as a human. And if you don't have it, you're probably a psychopath anyway.

Jo: 11:58

Oh, Oh, well, that's made me feel better. Thanks, Mel. That's that's good. So there we go, everyone. We all feel much better now.

Jo: 12:03

We love Mel. So let's just, just go back a little bit and find out sort of of how what your childhood was like and your background and how you sort of came to be where you are today. What made you you, basically, Mel?

Mel: 12:18

Oh, my goodness. That's such

Jo: 12:19

a huge question.

Mel: 12:20

I know.

Jo: 12:21

Word. So starting

Mel: 12:22

with you

Jo: 12:22

don't have to go, I mean, we've only got roughly an hour. What what were your school days like? You know, were your parents in an industry that helped you towards this sort of creativity?

Mel: 12:32

Or such a good question. So I'll just share what pops into my head because, obviously, this entire autobiography just flashed into my brain. So I'll give you the edited highlights. So I am the child of parents who were in the Royal Air Force. So my parents met while they were in the air force and so a significant part of my childhood, they were, doing that work and it meant that we moved around a lot.

Mel: 12:57

So I think that that contributed to me being a consultant as well as a coach. I'm a consultant which means in brief, you know, I'm dropping into different businesses, checking out what their marketing problems are and helping them solve them. And being the child any anyone I've met who's a child who's a force's child, you know, army, air force, etcetera, which is hilarious, by the way, because I'm a pacifist.

Jo: 13:20

I was gonna say because I it's on the tip of my tongue to ask. I didn't want to interrupt your flow, but it seems we've sort of stopped a bit. So what did they do? Were were they both pilot? In my head, they were both ace pilots or something.

Jo: 13:29

You know?

Mel: 13:30

That would be exciting. No. They were an admin.

Jo: 13:32

Oh, right. Okay.

Mel: 13:33

Just so you

Jo: 13:34

know, they're they're you know, even the army and the air force need admin. Everybody needs admin.

Mel: 13:39

Exactly. Exactly. And I think, you know, they come from working class backgrounds, and it's just like a lot of people go into that because it's a great job, you know, on one level. I don't the kind of, you know, war part of it is is not great depending on your politics. I'm I'm I'm, you know, I'd really prefer that we didn't have war.

Mel: 13:56

I'm speaking as someone who what's the word, I'm sidetracking into different topics here, but I am someone who founded a peace festival and ran it for several years, you know, so I'm all about peace. But, you know, I understand that they made the choice they made in the time that they were in and from the backgrounds they were in. So going back to the topic of being a consultant, I had a childhood of like going to different schools, having to make friends very quickly, sussing out what's going on, where do I fit in and having to adapt and read situations very quickly. And I use that all the time now in my in my work. And also let's not forget I grew up in mainly so you know this is audio so anyone who doesn't know I'm a person of color, I'm mixed race, Jamaican father, God rest his soul, and a white Cornish mother.

Mel: 14:45

And, you know, growing up in the sixties, you know, it was, I was super noticeable out in the English countryside. And I had a lot of lovely friends but I also had people who were mean and, you know, I was bullied.

Jo: 14:59

Yeah. So

Mel: 15:00

it really toughened me up and it also helped me to see what people do to survive, how people, form cliques, who's open minded, who isn't. All of those things, you know, as a young girl I had to read a lot of social situations and I'm still fascinated by that. So that's a big thing that influenced me. And then the other thing that's popping into my mind is my mom is an amazing, amazing woman. She's turning 80, Stade, by the way.

Jo: 15:25

Oh, happy. What's your mom's name?

Mel: 15:27

Kathy.

Jo: 15:28

Kathy. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday, Kathy.

Jo: 15:35

What's the surname?

Mel: 15:36

Hoskins. Hoskins.

Jo: 15:38

Happy birthday to you. 80. Wow. Hooray.

Mel: 15:43

Oh, amazing. Oh, definitely have to ask her to listen to this podcast. So the reason I'm mentioning her is she is such a warrior. You know, she has worrier, not worrier. She has, something like a 3rd dan belt in aikido.

Mel: 15:59

And

Jo: 16:00

What's aikido? Because to me, that sounds like someone that goes to IKEA a lot, and I could I could possibly have a a black belt in that if I'm honest. So what is what is this sport? What is it? This martial art?

Mel: 16:13

There it is. I have to tell her that. I don't know really know what it is, but it's a form of martial art. Yes. And, you work key the key bit is, energy.

Mel: 16:22

So it's about working with energy. So I've I went to see my mum get one of I think it was her black belt. And, she had to fight off 4 men.

Jo: 16:30

You know? Wow. Kind of it's like cut of her jib.

Mel: 16:34

You know? Yeah. Her jib is very well cut. Think of Neo fighting off Agent Smith in the making.

Jo: 16:39

Oh my god. I've got that in my head now. This amazing woman. Crikey. That's it.

Jo: 16:44

And and also going back to the because it's a a very diverse background, obviously, Cornish and naked. What what accent did you have growing up? Which did you go for, or did you just go toe the line and try and not have an accent?

Mel: 16:55

That's a really interesting question. So I have lots of different accents, actually, and I live in London now, so I've become a bit I don't even you know how you can't tell what your own accent is? But I do know that I've no idea what my accent was when I was growing up. It's probably quite English y because I remember my friend saying your dad mumbles, and I would be like, no. He doesn't.

Mel: 17:17

But looking back, it's his Jamaican accent. He didn't have a strong Jamaican accent, I would say. So I didn't even notice it. I literally didn't even notice my parents had different colors and people until people started pointing it out.

Jo: 17:28

But you don't, dear. This is the whole point. It's it's a completely ridiculous statement, and we're all exactly the bloody same underneath whatever skin we've happened to be born in. So

Mel: 17:37

it's ridiculous. You know, you kind of I mean, obviously, I knew they had different skin colors, but I didn't attach any significance to it. I I was just like, you know, someone's got blue eyes, someone's got brown eyes. You don't kind of start trying to create a movement to get rid of all the people with blue eyes, you know. Unfortunately some people think that's a worthwhile way to live.

Mel: 17:55

Completely bizarre activity to my mind. But one thing I did notice was I moved to Cambridge when I was about 18 I think. And at the time Cambridge seemed like this bustling metropolis. I go back now and I'm like it's like this little sleepy village, you know, having lived in London. And I listened to a recording of me speaking then, many years later and I sound so flipping posh.

Mel: 18:19

I was like, you know, my name is Melanie, you know, and I used to speak like that. So I'm a bit of a chameleon. Again, being the forces charm moving around, you kind of adapt. But I've been in London now for over 30 years. So I don't know if I have a London accent but people often think I am a Londoner.

Mel: 18:36

So I've got a mixture, you know. But going back to my mum, the reason I brought her up was she always used to say to me what do you think? And it's recently I've realized wow she really trained me to be a consultant. Like to really trust my own opinion. So you know I have this strong view on life but I'm also very open and flexible because I had to go to lots of different environments and that is a brilliant gift to a child.

Mel: 19:01

It's a hard gift.

Jo: 19:01

Yes. It doesn't feel like a gift at the time, I'm sure.

Mel: 19:04

No. And, you know, you miss parts of the curriculum, you know. So there's, like, gaps in my knowledge that other people are, like, really good at geography and maths, and I'm really crap at them, you know.

Jo: 19:14

I was there for the whole of school in one school, and I am still crap at those things, so don't worry about it.

Mel: 19:19

But it's partly because you you know, I think teachers are amazing, but there are certain subjects I have to say the teachers weren't the right teachers for me. There were just some teachers who made things really magical and they were really standout like my English teacher. I can still remember her name. Right?

Jo: 19:35

Same same.

Mel: 19:36

Oh, missus Clark just gave me a love of literature and she was she saw me and she encouraged me. And if I again I'm going to keep looping it back to coaching, my passion. All some people need is for someone to believe in them and cheerlead them and sometimes in coaching you know that's part of what you're doing. It goes a lot deeper than that but sometimes they just need someone who's got their back professionally to say look you can do this. I've done it and I know it's totally possible and it means a lot.

Mel: 20:07

And you know what? Over the last few years people have been through hell like COVID, all the different world events, political events. It's like people have felt so powerless and so disappointed and disillusioned and Brexit whichever side of the fence you're on politically it's been a tough time right? There's been fights within families. It's been really challenging.

Mel: 20:27

And people have turned to coaches and therapists and support because oh, and also, you know, oh my goodness, Jo. So many people getting ill and worse. You know, it's been a lot.

Jo: 20:41

It has. And I think a lot of what you've just mentioned, has been really glossed over as well. You know, I think pea I think nobody has been allowed to feel disgruntled, angry, sad, you know, all of the emotions. I think people have have just been expected after 3 years of on and off lockdowns and the world coming to a standstill, and we were sort of hoodwinked into thinking it was okay and normal and just pick yourself up and carry on and and not have any flashbacks to it or any any sort of ongoing trauma based around it, which to me is as frightening as them shutting the world down for that amount of time.

Mel: 21:24

Yeah. Oh my goodness. I remember I was speaking at a conference and COVID came up and we had, like, maybe 15 minutes just to chat briefly about how it impacted this sector. And I sat there and I thought, we need a whole weekend on this. Like, people just could not stop.

Mel: 21:41

It was it was like a therapy session and you're absolutely right. There's been no I mean, that's not true. I was about to say there's been no opportunities. There have. Like, people have said, come on this webinar and talk about it, but there's been no top down stuff.

Mel: 21:56

And we kind of need our leaders to say, yes. We went through hell and, you know, something.

Jo: 22:01

Yeah. There's no acknowledgment. And and also the other thing with it is that was sort of the the the big double, triple whammy. And then since then, we have just had war after war, after energy crisis, after, you know, it's just like how it's almost textbook how to ramp up fear and anxiety in a population. And I think I stopped watching the news when COVID started because I couldn't bear it.

Jo: 22:27

I've said this before, I think, when I've spoken to other people on here, but I genuinely think you feel, well, I do feel mentally healthier if I switch it off and just try and concentrate on what I'm in control of because you get that you're just looking at such a big picture that's way out of your control, and you spiral into depression and all sorts.

Mel: 22:48

Yeah. And I I think you hit the nail on the head. When people feel they have no control there's actually been studies done on this around work. They get depressed, you know, even just in the workplace when people feel micromanaged by their manager, which is a hellish experience if you ever been through it. They then they feel they have no choice, no autonomy, and then life kind of loses its purpose.

Mel: 23:10

We need that sense of control. And when it happens on that massive scale and that we it was so weird. I I remember when COVID first hit, and this is gonna turn into a therapy session now, Jay. I remember the first time me and my husband went to Tesco, and it was like I literally was like, is it gonna be like the zombie apocalypse out there? Is it safe to go out?

Mel: 23:34

And it was so weird.

Jo: 23:36

Eerie. It was eerie, wasn't it? Everything. Yeah. Yeah.

Mel: 23:40

It was like it's really odd. It's safe. It was so and like, there was like the guidance was so sparse and it was like, what do we do?

Jo: 23:48

And contradictory and and nonsensical, you know. Oh, you can you can go to a restaurant, but you've got to keep a mask on until you sit at the table because when you sat at the table, everything's fine. You know, it's just like, oh, for fuck's sake. Do you know? Excuse my French.

Jo: 24:01

But it's like, you know, treat us with some form of intelligence and, you know Yes. Don't gaslight us.

Mel: 24:09

Yeah. You know? Like, oh, what a weird weird time.

Jo: 24:12

Weird time. But let's part let's part that and get back into your so you your your mom has obviously been a pivotal and your background actually, so I'm glad I asked really because it just goes to show that that sort like you said, that sort of upbringing is intrinsic training for spotting what's wrong in a situation and sort of always being, I suppose, as a kid, on guard a bit, really.

Mel: 24:36

Yes. And, you know, I I'm a strong person. I'm a positive person. But when you've been bullied at school, it does kinda scar you. And that's, I think, the other reason why I got into the world of coaching was realizing you can overcome anything from your past.

Mel: 24:54

And I mean anything. Because it's exactly what you were saying earlier about the difference between fear and excitement is it's the meaning you attribute to it because really it's the same physiological response. And once you're taught that, you can start choosing how you see the world around you, how you see yourself. So, you know, if you, you know, I've seen coaching, like, transform someone from, like, someone who has, like, the identity of I'm a shy person, and they really believe that into, oh, that's just a choice I made as a child as a defense mechanism because blah blah blah happened. As an adult, I can choose to be outgoing because none of us are fixed.

Mel: 25:34

We are not fixed beings. And they used to think psychologists used to think you can't change your personality. Actually, you can. You know, it's it's I'm not saying it's always easy. There are certain things about us that probably never really gonna change, you know, but sometimes it's trauma that changes it for us.

Mel: 25:50

People sometimes people have, like, this enlightenment experience where they it might be giving birth to a child and some someone who's been a kind of work shy person suddenly decides to start their own business and really go for it. Things like that can happen that completely turn our lives around or someone who's been like really angry and resentful all their life suddenly experience deep love and realize I want to be a more loving person. I'm going to forgive and in that forgiving they they reconnect with their heart and start to really enjoy their life again. I think those things I call them miracles. I think they're really magical and that's another reason why I got them.

Mel: 26:27

It was it's just coaching is incredible. It's it's it's miraculous.

Jo: 26:31

Yeah. And so you you concentrate mainly on businesses. Do you or do you do one to 1 and personal stuff now, or or have you ever done it, or do you choose not to do that?

Mel: 26:41

That's a great question. I do in special circumstances. So chief execs of usually not for profit organizations, I do coach. Solo openers, I tend to invite into my group because it just works better. They get faster results and that that really works for people who own their own businesses.

Mel: 27:01

But people who are heading up like, a charity, as a chief exec are unlikely to come into a group program for entrepreneurs so I tend to work with them separately. But it's on a highly selective basis. So most people who are working with me are in a group. I've got a team of 6 coaches, so they're allocated to coach, but they also still have sessions with me 1 on 1 within that group program.

Jo: 27:25

And and what is your actual business called? Your

Mel: 27:29

it's called Dream Project Coach. So because business is all about projects, you know, you you, you know, I've got a project to get my business to first 50,000, first 6 figures, first 7 figures, you know, whatever it is. 1st 50 p is something I listen, Joe. I have got people who you know, one of my clients, I'm allowed to share her age because she talked about it publicly. She's my oldest client is 82, based in America.

Mel: 27:53

She is brilliant, brilliant facilitator, therapist, spiritual person. And she, got her first client through doing a program with me. I was just so pleased, Ren. I spoke to her the other day and she's doing really well. She's still bringing in clients.

Mel: 28:09

You know, she said to me at the beginning of the program, can you help me get clients? I said, well, I can definitely help you get your first client, you know. So at 82. So,

Jo: 28:18

you know, and I Never too late.

Mel: 28:20

It's never too late. And, you know, as you as we age, a lot of my clients are kind of women age 40 plus, life batters us, you know, and we can become very resigned and cynical about what are we capable of in life. So, you know, again, that's one of the things we work with with people is, look, it doesn't matter what your age is. You as long as you have breath in your body, you can get out there and try new things and keep going and make things happen. You know it's it's it's really really powerful when you have someone reminding you of that.

Jo: 28:56

Yeah. I think I think what you said is really important is it's that having that someone that's got your back and believes in you. And and then it's also about accountability, isn't it then as well? It's like setting those goals or whatever it is that you want and and then having someone else that's gonna go, you said you're gonna do that or you haven't. You don't seem to have done this in the nicest way.

Mel: 29:23

Yeah. Really. And sometimes in a kind of politely challenging way. We all need that because we all have that part of us that would just really love to veg out and have, you know, the the classic comfort zone. And getting into the growth zone doesn't always feel comfortable.

Mel: 29:39

It doesn't always feel safe. It doesn't always feel desirable. And we lie to ourselves. We or even myself, after years years of training, we tell ourselves I don't really want that. Or my favorite one for me is when I feel challenged and confronted, I'll say, I'm bored.

Mel: 29:55

I don't wanna do that anymore. But that's the part a very powerful part of my brain trying to keep me safe.

Jo: 30:00

Yep. And sometimes you have

Mel: 30:01

to go into that zone that feels does not feel comfortable at all. Yeah. And it's quite incredible what what who you are and what you gain on the other side of that that zone. You know?

Jo: 30:13

It's so true. It's so true. And it's it's that thing, isn't it? Nothing exciting ever happened in your comfort zone. So, you know, if you if you want some excitement and something new and a new burst of energy and a new outlook, you you there's no choice.

Jo: 30:26

You have to make yourself uncomfortable. You just have to. There's no way around it. And it's obviously challenging and it's not everyone that you know, a lot of people sit on their sofa and and think, oh, I could have done this or I wished I'd done that. That involves more than just thinking and wishing, you know, anyone that's changed their life, they haven't just written themselves a blank check for a £1,000,000 and stuck it on the desk, hoping that, hoping that that's going to come true as a real thing without any you know, while still eating your Pringles on the sofa watching Netflix.

Mel: 30:58

Well, a 100%. And by the way, writing all the blank check is a good step one. But as you said, it's not the only set you've got. Take action. But I love vision boarding, so I do love that kind of thing.

Jo: 31:11

That's Actually, let me stop you there, Mel, because we're about to run out of the 40 minutes. Yeah. I I don't have the I should have, and it's me it's me. I you I've just realized during this conversation that I should have invested in my business by having a Zoom that could let me do more than 40 minutes at a time. But it happens.

Jo: 31:29

So although I preach all the stuff, you know, you know, people I'm just human. I'm just a human. So what Mel and I are going to do is a short commercial break, which doesn't involve any commercials because I am an independent broadcaster. So what we do is and we'll just log back in on the same, link that I sent you. So just give it 5 minutes.

Jo: 31:48

If you need if you need a short toilet break Mel, now's your chance. Or if you wanna make a cup of tea, now's your chance. So, I'll see you in a I'll see you and hear you, listeners, in 5.

Mel: 32:01

I love that, Jo. Thank you.

Jo: 32:04

Hello. Welcome back, young Melanie. How are you?

Mel: 32:08

Oh, I love that you call me young Melanie, especially I turned 60 last year, so I'm loving that.

Jo: 32:14

No way. Honestly, people, have a look at Mel's photo. I mean, seriously, what's her secret? Who knows? Maybe it's those Cornwall stroke Jamaican jeans.

Mel: 32:25

I think so. It's also I think it's about portrait I keep in my attic.

Jo: 32:29

That's right. Yes. Yes. Very good. Very good.

Mel: 32:33

My top tip is bone broth. Do

Jo: 32:36

do you really drink that?

Mel: 32:38

Yeah. I've started drinking it, and everyone keeps saying, oh, you look really well.

Jo: 32:42

Nice. Yes. I've seen that. I used to see that for sale at, Blackheath Farmers Market used to sell bone broth. Yeah.

Jo: 32:49

Yes. That's a that's a tip then, everyone. The bone broth, I'm telling you, she looks great on it. Get it down your neck. Too sweet.

Mel: 32:58

Thank you.

Jo: 32:59

So we were just talking about, before we were rudely interrupted by my inability to pay for, professional standard Zoom. We were talking about comfort zones and things. You mentioned at the top of this that you did a festival. I think it's 3 festivals that you instigated. So Okay.

Jo: 33:20

I was thinking perhaps you could tell us about those and how how you even thought to do or did the first one and what they were. I think they were sort of community led ones. Am I right in saying that? Yes.

Mel: 33:33

All correct. So I can't remember when it was now. Around 2,002. Yep. That was it.

Mel: 33:41

I was doing a leadership course. I'm a personal development course junkie. I love, you know, as if you haven't guessed already, love developing myself, developing others. So I was doing this leadership course and we were given home our homework was to go out and create a future for between 20 to 200 people, a future that wouldn't happen if you didn't take action. So in other words, go out and lead.

Mel: 34:05

Don't just learn the theory here. Go out and do it and learn as as you're leading. What an interesting invitation. Right? So I'm really huge, and also incredibly vague.

Mel: 34:18

What the hell does that mean? Yeah. Or as well as all the other passions I've talked about in this interview, I love art. I'm a keen painter. You know, that's another that's another big part of my life.

Mel: 34:28

I've had 2 fine art degrees. So I wanted to do initially a kind of art happening. I shared my idea with my husband. He's and I was like, let's get a group of people in a room and everyone chants the word love for now and we'll see what happens. Like, you know, happening.

Mel: 34:42

He said that's a terrible idea. It's really weird. And I I still think it's an interesting

Jo: 34:45

I'm with your husband. I as you say, I was like, no. Not for me. I would be I would opt out of that.

Mel: 34:50

It would be a bit odd, wouldn't it? So, so I took his advice because part of the coaching on the program was consult. Like, take, taking information from others and be open to it, which was hard for me at that time even as a consultant. I was kind of like, you know, you have this idea and you make it happen. And it was like, take in other people's ideas.

Mel: 35:10

Be open to their guidance. So which can feel a lot of people struggle with this in leadership, by the way. Like, with their teams is is something that really trips people up in business. It's like when they have to delegate, and they they wanna hold on to everything really tightly. I went out and, I spoke to different people and said, what do you think we need here in Stressing in South London?

Mel: 35:30

And, you know, I knew I had some idea of a a kind of gathering. And and to cut very long story short, after talking to lots of people, it became a festival which we called the Stresson Festival. And I got support from all sorts of people because I remained open. So kind of built up this incredible team. And, we had a a festival and a series of arts events, you know, because I love art the arts.

Mel: 35:56

And, we had a live event. I think about 200 people showed up. Wow. My mum my mum took part. She played her didgeridoo.

Jo: 36:06

Oh, my goodness. Hang on. Wait a moment. Not only is it her birthday and she's wonderful because she set you up for a lifelong career of joy and doing things you love and helping others. She plays the didgerie bloodiedoo.

Mel: 36:21

She does and she plays it well and I mean she's she's amazing Jo. Like she she's a yoga teacher and she went to India about 6 years ago to to to do some more yoga training. Like, she just never stops. She she's a phenomenal human being.

Jo: 36:38

She really sounds like it. I'd like to meet her. When can we have lunch?

Mel: 36:42

Oh, you know what? Once met, never forgotten. People always remember her.

Jo: 36:47

My mom's a bit the same. Really?

Mel: 36:49

Well, look at you. You know, you would have to have an amazing mom to be you because you're really incredible. You're you're very creative and, as I said, innovative. You know? So, yeah, amazing moms.

Mel: 37:01

Right? Yep. Anyway, so I did this event. It was you know, at the time, there wasn't much happening and stressing on the cultural calendar. And then I was like, great.

Mel: 37:11

Homework done. But the town center manager, Leah Levine, had said to me, I'll fund this. She put in about a couple of 1,000, I think, at the time. If you do, you know, create create this on an annual basis. I was like, oh my god.

Mel: 37:27

What have I done? I now have to commit. But I was like yeah let's do it. Let's see where it goes. So I ran that for I think it was about 5 years, built up an amazing team and then handed it over to 2 amazing women who are still firm friends Patricia Sauer and Anna Godsif, I have to name check them, who then took on the leadership.

Mel: 37:45

And they then handed it over to other leaders. Like, it's now it's still

Jo: 37:49

going thing. You

Mel: 37:50

know, what? 2,002. What's that? 20 years. Right?

Mel: 37:54

Something like that. Yeah.

Jo: 37:55

20 23, 22 years ago. What week? 2025 now? Yeah. Yeah.

Jo: 37:59

Yeah. Wow.

Mel: 38:01

It's still going and so that homework, I think we can say the homework was achieved. It created A

Jo: 38:06

big tick.

Mel: 38:07

No. Big tick. Thousands of people have taken part. So then to cut a long story short, I was like no more festivals. Such hard work.

Mel: 38:15

I love it, but I'm doing it on top of my consulting work. Wasn't doing much coaching then. I was doing a bit. And then, Patricia came back to me, I think, about 2 years after I'd left and said, we wanna create a food festival in Stressing because there's so many places to eat here. And by the way, Stressing has the longest high road in Europe.

Mel: 38:35

Like, it has this long ass high road and it's full of eateries. And many of them are run by actually, like Michelin starred chefs. You would never know because it doesn't look like it, but there's been amazing, amazing cafes, restaurants, etcetera there. So I was like, yeah. Okay.

Mel: 38:52

And, I did it because I wasn't very busy at the time, and they offered to pay me. To be honest, Jo, by the time I'd finished that work and I might as well have volunteered because it was so much work setting up and working with businesses. And, anyway, we created a food festival and I ran that for a couple of years and then, you know, again, handed it over. It's still going. And then I was really like, okay really really no more festivals now because I was even busier you know because my career was like And then I was on Twitter which of course has now become x and of course for me I don't want to be on there.

Mel: 39:23

But at the time it was still everyone still loved Twitter at that point. So someone who lived in Streatham, was, talking about peace and the International Day of Peace. And I had seen this incredible video, which if you're listening you must watch. It's called the day after peace. I think it's called that.

Mel: 39:41

Created by this guy called Jeremy Guillie, who's an actor who so much to say, but the short version is he managed, to cause a ceasefire with the Taliban in Afghanistan so thousands of children could get they could get vaccinations to children. And that is like an incredible feat. And he's basically resurrected the International Day of Peace and he does this amazing event every year. And I got really inspired, really moved actually. I was like I want to do my bit for peace because I really love nonviolent communication.

Mel: 40:11

I'm not saying I'm the most peaceful person in the world. Far from it. You know, I have my faults. But I really believe it's the way forward for the human race is for us to learn to find ways of being together that aren't violent. And I think that's something that can be learned.

Mel: 40:25

You know, it's everyone's talking about trauma now. Yeah. People needing to understand the impact of trauma more. So I thought I just wanna show this film. I want people to see this film because it's so inspiring.

Mel: 40:35

And I met this woman called Anna Nolan on Twitter, Twitter, and she was like, yeah. I'll help you show the film. Didn't know of Madame. We just got inspired, got together. And before you know it, Joe, I've created another flipping festival.

Mel: 40:45

A hat

Jo: 40:46

trick for Mel Lawson.

Mel: 40:47

Oh my goodness. It's like, well, just show the film. And they're like, why not have a talk? Oh, let's have some music. Suddenly, it becomes this festival.

Mel: 40:53

I can't remember how many years I ran it for. And then I handed it over to a woman, brilliant woman, called Simi Solomon who, brought lots of different religious organizations together. She's done, you know, she had a session where we were commemorating sadly children that had lost their lives in gang wars. We talked about very serious topics but also fun topics. Everything to do with peace and one of the things I'm most proud of is for a number of years we had peace as a topic in school assemblies.

Mel: 41:27

So literally thousands of children got to talk about what peace meant for them and we didn't we weren't didactic. We weren't like this is what you should do. We ask them what do you think you know peace is what will cause peace in the world and I think that's a powerful question to our children because I believe that will stay with them for the rest of their lives And that is why education is one of the primary places. I discovered from running the Peace Festival every single year just before the Peace Festival would be some atrocity happening in the world and we would always think why are we doing this? Why do we bother?

Mel: 41:58

It's so difficult. It's so complicated. And we always are like because we have to keep going and we have to keep presencing this conversation for change. On a grand scale when we look across the world, you know, I wish that our world leaders were thinking in that way. I think I see a lot of survival leadership, a lot of traumatized leadership.

Mel: 42:18

You know, we have some very powerful people in the world who if only they would turn their sights to how can we all work together, it would be incredible. And some people who are so powerful, they could do that, and then they're choosing not

Jo: 42:31

to. I think the the frightening thing is is that the leaders in the biggest countries of the world are not even fit for per you know, they're they're actually, actually, criminals. And Yes. You know, they are not they are not what, should be leading anything. They shouldn't even be leading a dog as far as I'm concerned, let alone a country.

Jo: 42:50

So

Mel: 42:50

So but but going back to the festivals, one of the things that I learned from running a peace festival was having to address my own lack of peace and that surprised me because when you're constantly thinking about a topic you really start to see, am I peaceful? What's in my world? And having to address my own lack of hope sometimes like why are we having a peace festival? It's so hard. But I'm very proud that it's still going.

Mel: 43:15

All 3 festivals are still going. One of the things I feel really proud about is and this is a story of again how powerful we can be. So I, one of the things I think this was before the Peace Festival. Actually, it's like a precursor to the actual festival when I was exploring Peace because I was really, you know, still doing leadership training and, like, really exploring what can you do as a leader. How can I, as one person, impact change?

Mel: 43:42

And one of the things I did was I thought I'm gonna invite people to have conversations about peace. I thought that's easy and that could have a ripple effect. It's actually quite hard to do, actually, but I got a number of people to do it. My mom said, yeah. I'll have her talk to some friends.

Mel: 43:57

My friend in Australia said, I'll talk to some friends down the pub. And then I contacted, one guy I know in the UK, a Rastafarian guy called Shango who lives in the UK. He spends half his time in the UK and half the year in Ghana. Lovely guy. Works in theater.

Mel: 44:14

Very creative. And I said to him, would you like to do this? And he said, I don't have the time, but I'll contact he's actually, I don't know if I just said he's Trinidadian originally. So he said, I'll contact, a school teacher I know in Trinidad. Actually, not a school teacher, an arts person, and ask if she wants to do it.

Mel: 44:32

So he kind of passed the ball on to someone else. And I I don't think I chatted with her. I can't remember. It's a long time ago now, but we had an email exchange. And she said, yeah.

Mel: 44:40

I'll do it. I'll do something. Anyway, a few weeks later, she sent me a newspaper clipping from Trinidad, picture of 300 kids in Trinidad has had this she'd done a workshop with them to explore peace. Two phone conversations, a couple of emails. My leadership caused something on the other side of the world that I I didn't have to lift a finger to create.

Mel: 45:02

And that's when I really got the power of opening your mouth, causing something. And I would say, still I would say, I'm not super politically informed. I'm not the most courageous person. I frequently feel scared. I frequently think, am I doing the right thing?

Mel: 45:17

Am I doing this right? All the impostor syndrome comes up. But because I took action, those kids had, a great conversation. They had a great experience, and it got covered in the press. You know.

Mel: 45:28

So I was like we are more powerful than we think and so there were so many stories I could tell like that about what those different festivals did and still do. They're all still going. So if you like that's my legacy and the funny thing is most of the people running those festivals now don't even know who I am. It's like I planted a seed and off it went, you know. So it's it's not even an ego thing.

Mel: 45:54

It's nice for people to say, oh, Mel, you've done this festival. But it's not it's nothing to do with me anymore. I just left a legacy.

Jo: 46:01

That's amazing.

Mel: 46:01

I'm really excited about that. Thank you.

Jo: 46:03

No. It truly is. And so so what do they each of those festivals have a name?

Mel: 46:09

Yeah. So there's the Streatham Festival, which is pretty much an arts festival, and there's the Streatham Food Festival, and then there's the Little Big Peace event.

Jo: 46:20

Oh, that's a nice title. That's lovely. Well, as a legacy, Mel, that's pretty good going, isn't it? I mean, seriously yeah. Yeah.

Jo: 46:29

From someone that when you did the first one, you're like, no. No. No. This is very much hard work, and I won't be doing that again, to a hat trick of festivals. You know, that's huge.

Jo: 46:40

That's absolutely you know, that's so inspiring. I mean, really, I mean, who's done that in their life?

Mel: 46:46

Well, thank you. And I have to say, Jo, I really receive your acknowledgement. Thank you. And there was no way I I could have ever done that on my own. It was all done with the most amazing voluntary teams of people who gave so much.

Mel: 47:02

And again, you know, we you know, you were saying you don't read the news. I avoid it as well. I I might glance occasionally but when you look at the news you feel like nothing good is happening a lot of the time. But actually, I what I learned from those festivals is there are people in all over the world giving their free time out the goodness of their own heart to cause good in the world. Like millions of people and it just doesn't get covered.

Mel: 47:28

So we get this skewed version Yeah. Of what's happening in the world. But, you know, there are so many good people there.

Jo: 47:35

I do think that's the thing in life that if you can make that first even if it's really tentative and hard for you out of your comfort zone brave step, it will it will snowball into lots of other steps that will be so much easier.

Mel: 47:50

That's that's it in a nutshell. And, you know, if you'd said to me in 2002, you you would have achieved all of this, I would have just said I can't I can't see that, you know, that's too big but you grow into, you know, I always say you grow into your vision, you grow into your dream and, you know, get started exactly as you said take these small steps and you'll be amazed at where it takes you next.

Jo: 48:14

And, just before we close our finish our chat off, I think it's a really good opportunity now to talk about, your new year. You do this every year, I believe, called FutureSeed, which, I don't know. Our listeners might be interested in still doing. I think there's still spaces this Friday that you do it.

Mel: 48:32

It's correct. This Friday, 10th January, it's called Future Seed. And it's called Future Seed for all the reasons you just so beautifully described. You know, you you have that seed of an idea and you nurture it and then it grows. So, you know, January is a brilliant time to envisage your year, set your goals, you know, we all know that and it's really powerful when you're guided to do that.

Mel: 48:59

You know, it's good to sit there and do it on your own but when you're in a community that's all going for it and you've got people inspiring you, you think bigger, you feel better about it and all of those things are really important for you fulfilling on your your dreams. So Future Seed is a one day online event and there's me and some of my team members leading workshops. So we help you to review your last year and let go of it but also look at your wins. We help you then to explore what am I going to do next? What might I do next in my business?

Mel: 49:30

Business and projects. You don't have to have a business. It might be a, you know, you might be an entrepreneur. You might have a department in your in your in as an employee and, you know, projects that you run. I take people through a guided visualization which is very very powerful so you really get into the feelings and the vibe of what you want.

Mel: 49:49

Then you create your vision board, which is basically a collage. And then we bring in, lots of guest speakers who take you through all sorts of different themes like, this the theme for this year, overall theme is power because, you know, as I was saying initially in this interview of people have been feeling disempowered for the last few years. So we thought let's let's not let on the head. Let's get empowered, you know, remember our power. So, you know, I've got in a master coach coming in called Tanya who's just like this incredible coach.

Mel: 50:20

They're gonna talk be talking about being the you know, be get ready to be the boss of your own business again. I've got, Jackie Muscat coming in. She's gonna teach us about Facebook ads which is something that people feel very disempowered around. I've got Lainie Love Dolby coming in from America, and she's all about sparkling shamelessly and using your body to reclaim your, what she likes to call your orgasmic power. This is a business event, but, you know, the body and the she's a really interesting person.

Mel: 50:53

I mean, I can't wait for her session because she she's phenomenal, and she's a real kind of standout personality and and very powerful about kind of energy and how we view ourselves. And so many more speakers coming in. So it's not gonna be like your typical business event. You know, I'm gonna be walking people through, like, tips on messaging for powerful messaging your business. So there'll be marketing stuff for sure, goal setting for sure, but also oh, there's one other guest speaker I must mention, Harriet Thomas, who, recently has finished walking from Lands End to John O' Groats.

Mel: 51:29

Right? How incredible is that? And so that's that's 1200 miles that she walked. She's gonna talk about what she learned from doing that. So, you know, I'm assuming commitment and determination will be in there somewhere.

Jo: 51:42

Yeah. Which corn plasters to buy.

Mel: 51:45

Yeah. You know?

Jo: 51:47

Handy tips. Shaping.

Mel: 51:51

And she's a wonderful person. She's oh, she is an amazing person. She's so can do. I just love being around her. So I always pick people who are like, light you up, people.

Mel: 52:00

Some of them are gonna challenge you. Some of them are gonna be a bit outrageous, you know, but it's always a really, really amazing day. And, a whole heap of other stuff as well that there's not enough time to go into. So that that's what it's about. And this is my 6th year of doing it.

Mel: 52:14

So I guess what, Jo, I think it's kind of like a place in another festival.

Jo: 52:17

Yes. You have. An annual get together of like minded people that are looking for their next challenge or how to change or shape their business up a bit. Yeah. So it's, it what time does it start on Friday?

Mel: 52:31

So it's UK timings. It's 10 AM to 7 PM at night. I know that might sound like a long time to be on Zoom, but we have a lot of breaks. And every single year when people show up, and they've they've kind of like, oh, maybe I'll dip in and out. They're always like, oh, I need to cancel my meeting.

Mel: 52:47

This I'm loving this. Like, seriously, I'm not that's not just hype. There's one other thing I need to say about it, Jo, that's really important is it is ticketed. It is a paid for event. All the income goes to Kiva.

Mel: 53:00

Kiva is an amazing organization that loans money to people like you and me, but who are in underserved communities. I hate the word 3rd world developing countries. I don't like those terms. I know they're kind of convenient, but I think they kind of suggest a power dynamic that's not helpful. So I like to say underserved communities.

Mel: 53:19

And so I always funnel that money towards women's business cooperatives like food growing, textile cooperatives in African countries. And it is not a handout. It is not a handout. It's a leg up. So they get that money as a loan and then they pay it back, but that loan has no interest charged and they can they take that they can take as long as they need to pay it back.

Mel: 53:44

So I love that because it, you know, doesn't strip people of their dignity. It's like equitable And I think it's the perfect partnership for businesses. So, that the ticket income is directly helping our peers in other parts of the world.

Jo: 54:00

Well, that's an that's another really good reason to do it actually, isn't it? I mean, that's, it gives you all the vibes, doesn't it? It's all the feel goods. Basically, feel good about yourself, your business, and then feel good about helping others to feel good about their own business. So it's, you know, the gift that just keeps giving.

Mel: 54:17

Jo, will you come and do my marketing for me? That was just I'm good. That was perfect. Perfectly worded. I have to use that.

Jo: 54:27

Well, Mel, it's been absolutely amazing catching up with you. I can't believe it's been, like, 20 odd years since we've been in the same room doing freelance creative consulting. And my, how things have moved along. So, yeah, I mean, huge congratulations to you and all your amazing, amazing achievements. I know I've said the word amazing, like, ridiculous amount of times, like, I'm some sort of American.

Jo: 54:51

Amazing. But you are. It has been exactly what this, podcast is all about, which is inspiring stories from real folk, you know, because the other thing is I think that people often just think that the people that they see that are successful have some sort of magic ingredient that they don't have, and, it's not true. You know, we're all capable of doing amazing, incredible things with our lives and helping others as well. So and I think you are a testament to all those things.

Jo: 55:22

So thank you so so much for coming on. It's been a blast, and I think we just need to mention your website and, where they can find the link. I'll put the link to Future Seed, in the description of this episode. But what's your website, Mel, again?

Mel: 55:39

So it's dreamprojectcoach.com.

Jo: 55:43

Dotcom. And the event is called future seed, and the tickets are on sale now.

Mel: 55:49

The tickets are on sale now. What I'll do, Jo, is I'll send you a special discount code so your listeners can get some money off, you know, as a special

Jo: 55:59

How very kind. See, dear listener, there's a there's a reason that you listen to these. Mel's the first person to give you any money off anything. That's all I'm saying. I never have, but they're free.

Jo: 56:10

My podcasts are free. I send them into the world to to spread happiness and joy in dark corners.

Mel: 56:16

Oh, I love that. I love that. And that's that's important. You know, I do free stuff as well, you know, and I think it's important to give and be generous in business. And I love what you do, Jo.

Mel: 56:28

It's been such a pleasure to spend this time with you.

Jo: 56:31

Thank you. Thank you so much. And, hopefully catch up again soon. Good luck with Future Seed and everything else. Thanks, Jo.

Jo: 56:38

Thanks for listening to Real Folk with me, Jo Burke.